Thank you for your comments.

Come for breakfast! Come for tea!

Peace,
Ted

While it is sad that persons in power abuse their privileges, and abuse those that vest their trust in them, it is by no means endemic to zen or any other religion. It is found in almost any position that humans occupy. Your mechanic, doctor, lawyer, clergy, politician, president, building contractor, etc… As long as humans are involved, one is bound to see someone trying to take advantage of a situation or another person. That is why I value buddhism so much. It not only provides moral and ethical guidelines, it gives you the sound reasoning as to why. In addition, it dissect the “human condition” with such precision and clarity that it resembles more of a science than what we in the west would term a religion.

The only contention that I still have is that while zen may be just as confusing as ever, I doubt that is more confusing than ever. I think your quotations point to that. Ejo goes so far as to say that (during his time) it is the age of dereliction of teachings. Wow. Who knows if “zen” will continue to flourish, but what I do know is that the truth will always be present and as long as people are willing to commit to uncovering and manifesting the truth, that to which “zen” points to, will be alive and well.

Gracias,

“Y”

Greetings my friend, thank you for your comments.

(and for playing Devil’s advocate–now I will play my hand).

I agree with much of what you say here. Indeed, I think that most of it is in accord with standard Buddhist teaching—while such truths may have been inherent, I wonder how you became aware of them. Do you think that some of it may have been evoked in you somehow? Perhaps through being in contact with Dharma?

Perhaps such teachings are clearly accessible to those fortunate beings that are endowed with the common sense, intuition, and emotional and intellectual intelligence to discern “the signs that can help to guide the seeker.” I wonder about those that may not be so fortunate, and how we might be able to recognize those who are “truly resolved to walking the path” and those that are not.

Do all beings have the ability to “see through” an intelligent, charismatic, “dharma heir” professing his earnest desire (and ability) to help ease their suffering? Can they all manage to see through it soon enough to get their life savings back? Soon enough to save their marriage? Soon enough to avoid becoming infected with HIV?

Speaking absolutely, it is certain that those who have sought true awakening have been few (exactly as many that have realized it– one). But even admitting that is saying too much! Above the heavens, below the heavens, only I alone and sacred.

Speaking relatively, however, is sure to differ. As you say, “I have no way of knowing…” Me niether! Thus, I try to err on the side of caution. It is as easy for me to act as if all beings are genuinely attracted to liberation, as it is that few are. Beings are numberless, I vow to save them… All.

As to gauging the authenticity of a genuine teacher, it is certainly a perplexing question. You are right, there is no litmus test. Nevertheless, I think it is a question worthy of our consideration, and discussion. I tried to indicate what I see as some possibilities worth exploring in the original post. Of course, I did restrict the question to the Zen tradition, basically saying, if we have a firm grasp on the classic Zen teachings, and we encounter a “teacher” that seems to diverge widely from those teachings, we might want to be wary.

Yet, I understand it is not that simple. It is complex, and has been a difficult aspect of Buddhism from very early on. From the second or third “Council of Elders”, people have differed various aspects of the teaching. Still, it seems important to mention that there is a big difference in trying to “con” people, and differing on the best possible way to save the many beings. Diversity is one thing. Exploitation is another. In our own day, of the words that the dying man, Shunryu Suzuki Roshi, said concerning his transmission to Richard Baker, Gary Snyder said that:

“Dick (Richard Baker) quoted that to me himself, not knowing what it meant.”

“I wasn’t going to think about what it meant,” says Richard. “I knew I didn’t have the capacity, but I just knew I was going to do it.”
Shoes Outside the Door, Michael Downing, p.34

He knew he didn’t have the capacity, but wasn’t going to think about it? Wow, thankfully Ananda did not do that.

Downing’s interview continued, Baker says:

“I had one thought–I will do it. That’s all.” He looks genuinely curious when he adds, “What could I do?”
Shoes Outside the Door, Michael Downing, p.34

What could I do?!! Are you kidding me? Remember that this is how Baker described it in 2001; 20 years after the fact! He still wonders what he could have done? Where is Nansen when a cat needs killing? Snyder continues:

“Look at what he did do that should have disaffected people,” says Gary. “Like having them all stand in rows and bow as he drove away from Tassajara (in his white, sangha puchased, BMW). Which he did… That offended me personally.”
Shoes Outside the Door, Michael Downing, p.34

Gary Snyder’s words here are, in my view, worth pondering–and yes, even discussing with others, Baker’s actions “…should have disaffected people.” Why didn’t they for so long? Why did so many people remain silent for so many years while they (and their dharma brothers and sisters) were humiliated, as well as sexually and financially exploited? Did they enjoy being victimized? Were they being “good Buddhists” by sitting down and shutting up when they saw their fellow students violated? Did they think it was “okay” because the students had “volunteered” and “must have known” that they were being duped?

Perhaps I am just too dull to see the truth, but I find it impossible to believe that victims are not really victims. I have, and do experience genuine suffering. I know for me, that intense suffering makes for extreme vulnerability, especially from those I seek out for help, like spiritual teachers.

On page xx of his Introduction, Michael Downing closed with these two lines:

Remember, I was told, it was a voluntary thing.

I can’t seem to forget.
Michael Downing, from the Introduction to: Shoes Outside the Door

Just four generations after Bodhidharma, some of the symptoms were described by Daoxin. He also believed that people could be genuinely be duped (deceived) by false teachers:

There are people who teach living beings for the sake of fame and profit, without comprehending the characteristics of the ultimate Dharma. They do not recognize relative degrees of depth and shallowness in [their pupils’] capacities and causal affinities.

They give their seal of approval to everyone, to people who seem enlightened but are otherwise. This is most painful! It is a great disaster!..

These people are gravely damaging the teaching of enlightenment: they are deceiving themselves and deceiving others.
Daoxin (The Fourth Ancestor of Zen in China) Transmission of The Lamp

About 800 years later, Dogen too acknowledged that “true practitioners” could be “misled” by false teachers:

Yet if there were any true practitioners who put the will to the truth first, being naturally unconcerned with fame and profit, they might be fruitlessly misled by false teachers and might needlessly throw a veil over right understanding. They might idly become drunk with self-deception, and sink forever into the state of delusion. How would they be able to promote the right seeds of prajna, or have the opportunity to attain the truth?
Dogen, Bendowa, Gudo Nishijima & Mike Cross

His disciple, Ejo, offers some of the same symptoms that Daoxin saw:

…countless abbots of monasteries from the sixth century even up until now have been mere ignoramuses, deficient in wisdom…
Some of them may wrongly give definitive approval to a temporary surge of energy, or it may happen that through a temporary inspiration they sit for a long time without lying down, so that the mind and consciousness are thoroughly fatigued, everything becomes the same to them, activity and function stop for a while, and thoughts quiet down; then they misunderstand this state, which resembles the solitary radiance of ethereal spirituality, misconstruing it to be the state where inside and outside become one, the original ground of the fundamental state of the essential self.

Taking this interpretation to Zen teachers who have no true perception, they present the view. Since the teachers have no eyes in perceive people, therefore they go along with the words of those who come to them, giving them worthless approval, so that they call themselves graduate Zen monks. Countless followers of the Wav with shallow consciousness and little learning fall into this poison. Truly, even as we say it is the age of dereliction of teaching, is it not all pathetic?
Ejo, Absorption in the Treasury of Light, Thomas Cleary

Okay buddy, your turn!

Peace,
Ted

You are welcome. Thank You!

Peace,
Ted

Kudos to you for expressing your thoughts and feelings on such a potentially volatile topic. I wonder though if it is truly more confusing than ever. I think many of us have this romantic notion of spirituality, zen, guru’s, etc… We would like to believe there was a “golden age” of zen any other spiritual era. I have no way of knowing, but I would venture to say that those seeking the true mind ground have always been a select few. Even fewer who have realized it.

To compound this situation even further is how would one know a truly realized person. This is not like academia that you could read, assimilate, regurgitate and possibly expand upon a bunch of canon laws. Didactic knowledge is not the sole means through which realization, compassion, charity, etc.. is developed. If book knowledge and grand metaphysical premises are not to be relied upon, could one gauge the authenticity of a realized person by his samadhi or meditation powers. Could we acknowledge the depths of their realization by some physical means? I think we all know the answer to that.

There is no litmus test to gauge the authenticity or degree of realization of an adherent. There will always be signs that can help guide the seeker. If one is truly resolved to walking the path of realization, hopefully with a little common sense and intuition, one will realize that which they have always been seeking.

As an aside, I have met many teachers of zen and other “spiritual” disciplines. There are only two who seemed to be the genuine article. The first was such an unassuming, straight talking man that I wrote him off. The other will not even acknowledge he is a teacher. He dispenses his wisdom freely and keeps hammering away the nails day after day. In the end, “zen” is just as confusing as ever and it is the responsibility of each one of us to fully develop into compassionate and fully realized beings.

My two cents,
“Y”

Thank you for your comments.

You seem to have covered the field well—and left little for me to add—but I have got to try, so how is this:

Pete wrote: “Teachers that can respond with ” Knock it off! Don’t cling to that state” are too rare.”

Ted added: Teachers that can acknowledge that there IS a state, and THAT is (or is not) it, are too rare.

Peace,
Ted

PS Thanks for the “Permission” anecdote; how true, and how hilarious! Ha!
Also, treasure your task, and return soon.

Thank you for sharing these insightful, and thought provoking comments. There is much to ponder here. I certainly want to give some thought to the Tripitaka movie idea…

I hope you continue to share here…

Peace,
Ted

Thank you for this scary, but instructive example. Wow!

Portland? That sounds like a great idea.

Peace,
Ted

Thank you very much for sharing your experiences and insight. Your straight-talk and sincerity are greatly appreciated!

In re-reading my initial post I think I should have been clearer about what I was trying to say. My post could be read as suggesting that all Zen Buddhists should apply themselves to intensive study, read widely and extensively, learn all the jargon, etc. etc. That was not my intention. True, I believe that people who proclaim themselves to be Zen “teachers” (especially if using lables implying Zen “master”– “roshi”, “dharma heir”, etc.) should deeply familiarize themselves with the Mahayana doctrines, and personally explore the Zen teachings and techniques recorded in the classic Chinese, Japanese, and Korean literature. In my view, this could ease narrow or biased views, and more importantly, furnish teachers with a wider array of upaya (expedient techniques), expanding their ability to recognize (and treat) the specific hindrances that effect students of various capacities and levels of spiritual maturity.

For the rest of us (non teachers), how much or how little we read or study should be left for each of us to work out for ourselves. Generally, I am of the view that our actualization (of practice-enlightenment) is either expanding, or contracting—there is no standing still. Thus, WHERE we are on the path is not nearly as important as WHICH WAY we are moving.

What you refer to as “dabbling” in the literature certainly seems (at least to me) to have made a significant (and positive) impact on the Buddha (the universe and everything in it). The variety of Buddhist literature, and your insights, ideas, and experiences on it that you share on your blogs (and others) has been informative and inspiring to me, and I am sure to many others. The fact that you do not personally proclaim to know and understand everything about the path you are following (much less presume to be an expert on other peoples paths) seems like a good sign to me.

Barry wrote: “But after the grain has been transformed into flour, then what?”

Shakyamuni Buddha has been transforming grain to flour for 2500 years, and he is only half-way done.

Barry wrote: “How do we use this flour to nourish our lives?”

Grinding, grinding, grinding—ah, the best kind of nourishment!

Barry wrote: “Perhaps we might point to meditation practice as the oven in which we bake the flour into cakes.”

And bread, and tortillas, and pasta. And cookies! Don’t forget the cookies!

Barry wrote: “But – to be truly honest – I don’t even know if any of this is valuable.”

As for me, I think it is nothing special, totally worthless, meaningless too. Also, it is the most sacred, the most valuable, and the most significant of all!

Barry wrote: “Because, when I’m deep into the fight with my wife, the sutras don’t come to my rescue. No mantra soothes the hurt. Samadhi is nowhere to be found. It’s just: FIGHT!… This is work that I have to do *in the very moment* of violence. It can’t wait until I read Suzuki Roshi or Vimalikirti. I have to *come alive* right now.”

Me too! Yet, for some reason, those fights are less frequent every year—Also, it seems she wins a lot more often than she used to, maybe that is why they also seem much shorter…?

Barry wrote: “So what value do teachers, the teaching, the kong-ans, and meditation bring to our lives. Are they simply tools we use to prepare the garden?”

One day, at work, me and a group of crew members (who were of one political party) were arguing with a group of of crew members (who were of another political party) about something (it could have been a cat). The parties could have been “Left” and “Right” (or the West Hall, and the East Hall). Nansen suddenly snatched it up (though I seemed to be the only one to see him) and challenged us to say something. Fortunately, Joshu removed my sandals, placed them on my head, and escorted me out of the room. I heard Nansen exclaim, “The cat is saved!”

Barry wrote: “I wonder enormously about this, because some of the wisest, most spacious people I’ve ever met have never spent time reading Dogen or sitting on cushions. They simply scour their mind, moment to moment, and respond fully to what life presents.”

Yes, me too! Some people simply seem to avoid screening reality off in the first place. I have also noticed that this seems to more often be true of women (men seem to have a greater need to get their mind around things, figure them out, analyize, and categorize, etc.). I think that all the names and lables I apply to things sometime block me off from the fact that reality is reality. An awakened “Buddhist” cannot be different than an awakened “Muslim.” The reality that Dogen experienced and tried to help others realize was not different from the reality that Black Elk (a Sioux holy man) experienced and revealed.”

Thanks again Barry! It is always good (and enlightening) to hear from you.

Peace,
Ted